grrrr

[zinnith]

I'm not usually prone to fandom wank, but I just have a few things to say regarding the mckay_sheppard situation of the last days.

If you know me, you also know that I like constructive criticism. I like it when people let me know about my mistakes so that I can learn from them. I like to know whether or not my stories work for people. I like to know what works and what doesn't. Seeing as English is not my first language, I like to know about my spelling mistakes, my grammar mistakes, pretty much all the mistakes I make, because that's how I learn how not to do the same mistakes again.

I like doing the same for other writers. I like to help my friends make their stories better. If someone asks me for help, I'm happy to give it. It makes me happy to know that people value my opinion so much that they'll take my advice under consideration.

But something that's never ever okay is mockery. If you have a problem with another person's writing style, you have two choices. You can choose not to read the story, or you can choose to let the writer know how you feel the story could be improved in a nice way.

But if you instead choose to mock the story, you send the message that you find yourself superior to the other writer and the only thing you will achieve is to make her feel bad about herself, and maybe even stop writing altogether.

Writing is a personal thing and it is my firm opinion that you should always, always write for yourself. You should write the things you want to write, not the things your readers want you to write. That's how we, as individuals, keep our love of writing alive. That's how we, as a writing community, keep the diversity of our writing alive.

I'm not really familiar with the way the whole thing started. I know the basics, that some people apparently had problems with the length of another writer's stories.  And that's fine, everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. There are, however, good and bad ways to express that opinion. What makes me very disappointed and sad is that I have been a big fan of some of the writers who have chosen to take part in the mockery. They have inspired me a lot in the past, and I expect more from them.

We all have a responsibility towards each other to keep our fandom a place where we can have fun together, where everyone can feel like they are welcome. We don't want an elitist fandom where only a few people dare to post stories. We owe it to each other and to ourselves to encourage other writers and help them improve their writing.

Of course, we also owe it to each other to listen to advice and constructive criticism. That's how we can keep the quality of SGA-stories as high as it is. But mockery is not the way to go. 


Okay, rant over. Feel free to discuss.

Comments

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

I agree with you mockery is not helpful.

[zinfic.livejournal.com]

I'm glad! The whole thing left a rather bad taste in my mouth.

[tarlanx]

I've come in on the tail end of this fandom wank. I think I know what it is all about and I can agree with you. It wasn't the place of other writers to mock someone just because they were aggravated by the other writer's posting style - even though I really, truly understand their reasons after one 'story' was posted on a daily basis as a few lines at a time.

JEEZ! Just imagine what that would be like if I'd posted my 40,000 word Critical Error fic three sentences per day!

I got pissed off with it and simply stopped reading that writer's posts. I suppose, what I (and these others who mocked the writer) should have done was made a complaint to the moderator(s) of the comm. They might have then had a word with the writer and none of this would have happened.

Apart from my own LJ and mcsheplets, which is intentionally set up for FICLETS, I try not to post small ficlets (under 600 words) to a comm until I have two or three I can post together.

[the-cephalopod.livejournal.com]

I too understand the reasons behind this and, like yourself, simply started ignoring the posts in question. You are right - there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with such a situation. As far as I'm concerned, the internet is a free resource for all. As long as you're not breaking the rules of a particular comm, you should be free to post whatever you like. If others disagree with you, then they are free to tell you and/or make a complaint to the mods who can then change the rules, or not, as they see fit. You are also right that there is such a thing as common courtesy and I do think that the author in question did herself no favours by not listening to people suggestions re. the length/frequency of her posts. But this is really no excuse for being openly mocked...

On a less serious note, I hope your Wraith is playing nice with your 2 Sheppards...

cep xxx

[tarlanx]

Yeah...from what I learned, the author had been asked politely to roll her small posts up into a single post every few days rather than posting 25-40 words a day.

I think what was as annoying to others (so I am told) was that the majority of those 25-40 word posts made little sense as they came without context. I suppose it would be like me picking out a sentence or two from one of my stories and posting just that.

As for my Wraith...well, he had ideas of eating John but Replicator!John stepped in in time to save him :-D

[zinfic.livejournal.com]

Yes, I can understand their reasons too. I didn't read the offending story myself, so I really can't say anything about it. I do agree with you though, if it had been me, I would have waited until the story was complete and posted it as one story.

However, the mocking "stories" left a bad taste in my mouth, especially as it seems like the mods had already contacted the writer in question and were working on a solution to the problem.

Hopefully there will be clearer rules for the comm so that situations like this can be avoided in the future.

[tarlanx]

I suppose the problem was that the moderators knew feelings were starting to run high but didn't act fast enough in this instance because, technically, the author was posting within the rules of the community.

I'm hoping there will be clearer rules - most archives/comms ask for a minimum of 100 words. The only comm that is different is mcsheplets which is specifically geared to short stories with no minimum word count but a preferred maximum word count of 500 - though they won't complain as long as the story stays under 1000 words.

[the-cephalopod.livejournal.com]

Well said. *cheers*

Of course cliques emerge in fandom, just as they do in RL. It's natural, if rather disappointing. But there is no excuse for doing something you know will hurt someone else, and certainly no excuse for a group of people ganging up on another. That's bullying plain and simple and it is both wrong and, I would like to believe, beneath us.

On a different topic... you feeling better?

cep xxx

[zinfic.livejournal.com]

The thing that disappointed me the most is that I really used to admire some of the writers who participated in the whole thing. It's like seeing Terry Pratchett kick a puppy.

After sleeping for 20 hours I'm feeling much better, thank you! I still don't have much of a voice, but hopefully I'll be fit for school again on Monday.

Also working on the icecube thing...

[the-cephalopod.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you're feeling better. Gosh, 20 hours of sleep - sounds like you really needed it!

Also working on the icecube thing...

\o/ !!!

cep xxx

[zinfic.livejournal.com]

It might even have been a little too much sleep... It's now 6 o'clock in the morning and I'm wide awake. On a Sunday. *shakes head at self*

[anyanka-eg.livejournal.com]

Now, see, that's not fair. I've got an image of Terry Pratchett kicking a puppy in my head.

Glad you're feeling better. I'm just finishing a little fic for all us folks who've been ill. Of course when I say little I mean little for me and nothing that can cause mockery. Cos, you're perfectly right on that front.

[zinfic.livejournal.com]

Yay, fic! I'm looking forward to it!

I'm sure Terry Pratchett has never kicked a puppy and has no intentions of doing it in the future. As a matter of fact, I think he takes in stray puppies and feeds them and pets them. That's a nicer image, isn't it?

[anyanka-eg.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's much better :-)

[lambourngb.livejournal.com]

I was very surprised by the series of mocking posts that ended up on the community, and thankfully are now gone- not only that someone decided to do that, but also the people who participated. I too respected the writers involved beforehand, based on their body of work I had read. I was disappointed to see them air their frustrations in a petty and hurtful way (but I guess that proves everyone is human, subject to small moments, even if they did write moving, thoughtful, human stories- the flip side of the behavior exhibited).

I don't write myself, and as a reader, I rarely read WIPs, so I missed the whole background disgruntled mumblings surrounding the story that was posted. I did end up reading the finished product, and when I got to the end, did a word count- I was surprised to see it was less than 5,000 words. I guess I got my hopes up for a long meaty story that had 18 or more parts.

I had my hopes dashed twice this weekend, by the promise of a story, and by the promise of fandom.

[zinfic.livejournal.com]

I also think that posting such short installments of a WIP can be very irritating. (As a matter of fact, I don't read WIP's at all.) It also seems like the writer in question could have been more open to arguments, but after what I have understood the mods were working on a solution to the problem even before the whole debacle started.

I understand that even the people I admire and look up to are human, but when very popular writers do something stupid and hurtful like this and then get encouragement and lots of appreciative comments, it sends the message that it's okay. And it's not okay, not even if you're a Big Name Fan.

[lambourngb.livejournal.com]

I agree completely.

I tend to try and treat fandom the way I would my cat. He loves my attention, and he doesn't have it, he goes out to do something guaranteed to grab it (i e. he bats at blinds, licks plastic bags, paws at my bookcase to pull down my paperbacks, etc). If I can get past my initial urge to get up and grab him, he will usually stop his annoying behavior. Ignore negative behavior, and praise positive. If I don't like a story, or if I don't like someone spamming my communities, I simply hit 'page down' or backspace.

Everyone gets frustrated, but I really thought the SGA fandom had moved beyond this sort of juvenile mocking as a means of taking care of an issue.

The thing is from what I've read, the point of the mocking stories was to chasten a writer, keep her from posting short-short stories and spamming the community with her WIPs. And that hasn't happened: the writer in question is not sorry she spammed the community with short stories, and she's not promising to change her behavior (though new community rules are forthcoming, I'm assuming). What has happened is there is a message to all the new writers/and lurkers thinking about becoming writers: if you write or behave in an unpopular manner, other fans will rally in hurtful ways to teach you a lesson.

It's pretty discouraging to see that. And you're right, it's not okay.

[zinfic.livejournal.com]

I can see both sides of the argument. I can even understand the first author's reasons for 'spamming' because I'm a bit of an attention seeker myself. I want my stories to be read, and since I'm not one of those writers who automatically gets a lot of readers, that means I have to advertise. There are occasions when I have crossposted the same fic to 3-4 different comms, and I can imagine it can be annyoing to those who gets to see my fic on their flist 4 times in a row. However, I don't do this very often, and if someone was to ask me politely to stop, I would.

Since the first writer technically didn't break any rules (although she could have been more considerate to her fellow comm-members) I really can't see any way to justify the mocking fics. Like you said, it sends the message that you have to write/post in a certain way or you will get bullied. After what I have understood, the mods were already working on a solution to the problem when these authors decided to take it into their own hands.

I hope the poll will result in clear rules re: posting behaviour so situations like this can be avoided in the future.

[wanted-a-pony.livejournal.com]

Dang, I missed the whole wankfest. Ah well, marshmallows melt as well in hot chocolate as they toast over flames.... ;-)

Actually, the thing that irritates me is that the posts involved were deleted, but the controversy & squaring off/choosing sides continues. If the community mods feel it's necessary to delete entries or comments which are still causing ripples & comments, I wish they'd archive them somewhere so those of us who wish to be informed could go find them, but everyone else could ignore them. Now I'm left having to read carefully-anonymous, icely-polite posts about "some people" & "certain writers" with no way to form my own opinions. Especially if the mods are going to run some sort of poll, I'd like to read the "source documents" as it were.

It's one thing to hiss a rude comment between ones teeth to a companion, & then share a nasty chuckle. It's another to have to listen to it all over a public-address loudspeaker & feel uncomfortable, without really knowing what it's all about. But perhaps I'm in the minority in this & the mods are acting for the best. Dunno....

[ariadne83]

I completely agree with you. I was AFK for one weekend and somehow I missed the whole thing. Now I don't know what to think, but personally I'd rather know who was involved (though I suppose it doesn't really matter and it's best for fandom to try to just move on)

[zinfic.livejournal.com]

Well, I only caught the end of it myself, and I don't want to name any names because I don't think it's acceptable behaviour for anyone, no matter who they are.

As I have understood it, one author in the comm posted a WIP very frequetly in very short installments (like, three sentences short...) This annoyed other members of the comm and they asked her to instead make compilations posts a couple of times every week, to spare people's flists. She was reluctant at first, and stated that she had resons for posting the way she did, but she was unwilling to discuss those reasons publicly. Eventually, she stopped posting the WIP and instead posted a link to the complete story when it was finished.

She did, however, keep posting drabbles and short short ficlets, and this kept annoying some members of the comm. Instead of letting the mods handle the problem (which they were in the process of doing) they thought it would be funny to post a series of 4-word stories, obviously directed at the first author. Since many of these authors are rather prominent in fandom, they got a lot of appreciative comments and encouragement from fans.

Now, I can see both sides of the argument. It can be annoying when someone posts WIP chapters several times a day, especially as they were so short. But on the other hand, the first author didn't break any existing rules and didn't deserve the treatment she recieved. She could have been more forthcoming and considerate to her fellow comm-members, but ganging up and publicly mocking someone you don't agree with is not something I'm willing to tolerate.

I see how the whole thing can be confusing if you missed it, but I'm really not interested in adding to the wank. I'm just hoping the poll will result in clear rules as to what is acceptable posting behavious and what isn't.

[tarlanx]

I agree with you! It's very annoying to not have both sides of the argument and have it all told as hearsay. I'm not sure how DISABLE COMMENTS works when there are comments in existence, but this is one of those occasions when it would have been worth trying it to see if it stopped the thread without taking away 'evidence'.

[saffie-lew.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, I disappear into my dissertation for a couple of weeks and apparantly something huge happens. I haven't got a clue what's going on, but I agree with you; mockery is not constructive, if you don't like it, don't read it.